I Like this change!!!

Scott Pollak · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008, 02:17 (GMT) Post subject:

Max's and Diane's points are all quite valid and worth listening to. And yes, I have been one of those who has been somewhat vocal about not worrying about ratings.

All true.

However, this newer method of presenting at least SOME sort of feedback IS useful, but we do need to keep it in perspective.

I do, however, take issue with Maxine saying "rate yourself". Really, how many of us are really qualified to do that, ESPECIALLY those with less or little experience? To continue Max's analogy about the construction workers eyeing the woman on the street, how often have WE looked at someone and thought "Oh my Gawd, did she not look in the mirror before she left home this morning?!" Truth be told, we can be our own worst critics or we can be awfully blind to our own shortcomings. We NEED outside, unbiased feedback, no matter how minimal sometimes.

For example, if I continue to rate quite highly in many auditions, but am not landing many jobs, I can at least be fairly reasonably reassured that the reason I'm NOT landing the jobs isn't because I suck at this and need to find another line of work. It could be for any number of unexplained reasons, but if I'm consistently highly rated, at least I know I'm on the right track.

If, however, I see that I'm pretty consistently not anywhere close to the top of the pack, then that, too, is valuable in at least telling me that perhaps I need to at least work on improving my v/o skills, or even take a more unbiased look at whether this is really the right career path for me.

So yes, ladies, you're right. Let's not worry about them much at all. But I think at least SOME SORT of feedback sure beats none at all. As an actor who has trudged out on more on-camera auditions than I'd care to remember, there's not much more disheartening than having absolutely NO clue why you weren't cast. If the casting director - or in this case the v/o client - at least said "It's because you were too short" or "you cost too much", at least you'd know SOMETHING. And while we're still not being told MUCH with the new system, we are, at least, being told:

1) your audition was listened to, and
2) here's how competitive you were on this particular project

Colin Campbell · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008, 02:28 (GMT) Post subject:

Diane Havens · **Voice Talent** Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 1281

I didn't say there shouldn't be feedback -- as I also believed in grading as a teacher. It is taking that feedback and how we USE it to improve/modify/adapt. It's a non issue for me here, of course, but I can see the value, however limited, of it to you who audition here. I am only saying not to use it for something for which it was not intended. And not to let it become another distracting source of stress or celebration. Anything that helps you identify your strengths and the niche to pursue is a positive thing. I have caught on to what I do best, what I book most, what I enjoy most, what I am most successful at -- and even though I can audition for anything at other voice sites -- I don't waste my valuable time with ones I know are not for me.

Peter Ganim · **Voice Talent** Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 115

I see your point, Scott-

But - I do think we still have to re-orient the whole perspective and place it in an extra-V123 world. Though there may be, from time to time, projects that post ONLY at V123 and cast SOLELY from V123...I think it is more often likely (or at least plausible and realistic) that the submissions here will compete against other venues (we've all witnessed the double postings here and at TOS, to cite only the PTP sites...not mentioning agents, casting directors, voicebank, online and otherwise)-

So-
The rating provides a window, as you write, as to "how competitive you were on this particular project" - but ONLY as compared to those who submitted (and we don't know who the heck the others are...what if the majority of the other submissions posted before the project "closed" are from relative newbies with not much talent and even less experience...how does that inflect the word "competitive" in your statement?)-
AND-
Outside of actually BOOKING the job, there is no method to determine how the submissions at V123 stack up against the other potential candidates for the gig, submitted through all the other casting avenues. One may believe that placing in the top five at V123 assures viability in the industry and consideration for the gig...but, what if the top five at V123 place behind 75 others from other submissions? What if your #1 is, in reality, a #76?

I do see your point, and I admire your effort to spin a silk purse from this sow's ear...and, though I empathize with the desire to obtain constructive feedback - the harsh reality is that in this business it is the great exception to the rule. AND, any feedback we do receive has to be placed into a complicated context to ascertain its real value.
(Take it from a NY actor, ya just gotta believe and keep on keepin' on...)

Placing these "ratings" within their most likely context, and factoring in all of the variables and unknowns...they just really don't mean much...and it is more advisable to pros and amateurs alike to pay them scant attention and focus our limited energies elsewhere.

In the enthusiastic spirit of great success for my colleagues-

PG

Diane Havens · **Voice Talent** Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 1281

Yes, Peter. And it's so funny -- your advice is the same I get from all my NY actor friends when I ask them for it : "Just get yourself out there, and keep on keepin' on." It is definitely my attitude.

But I think most people want and need some feedback/information, however misleading or incomplete it is. It gives a psychological sense of control. Whatever helps you along the way is a good thing, isn't it?

As Woody Allen says in Stardust Memories -- "Too much reality is not what the people want."

Have a productive day, one and all!

Very Happy

Doug Parks · **Voice Talent** Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 227

Peter Ganim wrote:

So-
The rating provides a window, as you write, as to "how competitive you were on this particular project" - but ONLY as compared to those who submitted (and we don't know who the heck the others are...what if the majority of the other submissions posted before the project "closed" are from relative newbies with not much talent and even less experience...how does that inflect the word "competitive" in your statement?)-
AND-
Outside of actually BOOKING the job, there is no method to determine how the submissions at V123 stack up against the other potential candidates for the gig, submitted through all the other casting avenues. "One may believe that placing in the top five at V123 assures viability in the industry and consideration for the gig...but, what if the top five at V123 place behind 75 others from other submissions? What if your #1 is, in reality, a #76?

OK, that may be true when you're looking at a single audition, but when you average out high, low or mid-pack over many auditions, I think the data becomes somewhat reliable, since your competition has got to change from audition to audition. I do realize that, for instance, union talent may not audition for the same projects and non-union talent, but I believe what you're getting in this new config is a much better barometer of one's overall competitiveness, which is huge to many of us.

Peter Ganim · **Voice Talent** Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 115

The data is not at all reliable.
Not only because of the context, variables and unknowns I cite above- but also simply borne out by the actual V123 numbers.

I will use Mr. Pollak's stats since he has already shared them within this thread:

My rating / out of a total of / Comment

1 / 11 (likely hiring)
19 / 58 (maybe)
1 / 46 (maybe)
51 / 63 (not likely)
4 / 29 (not likely)
9 / 24 (maybe)
1 / 64 (considering)
13 / 39 (not likely)
1 / 24 (likely hiring)

Averaging these stats out, as you suggest, Doug, puts Scott at 11/40...which, again, is only a barometer of his competitiveness vis-a-vis the other random talent represented here at V123-

It has nothing whatsoever to do with one's ability to sustain longevity in the industry...nor does it have anything to do with one's ability to book the job...as is evidenced by the spate of #1 rankings...and no jobs attendant to them.

The real world application of this data is slim...not huge.

Best to all-

PG

Doug Parks · **Voice Talent** Joined: 06 Jul 2007 Posts: 227

Must disagree, Peter. Though I will stop far short of saying that the rankings are a 100% foolproof method of telling people whether or not they have the ability to pull down six or seven figures a year--or even four or five--doing VO, I WILL say that I believe that the rankings, interpreted soberly, can be a terrific barometer of one's potential.

I am fully aware that there are VARIABLES, like whether a talent was successful in capturing that X factor that a voice seeker was looking for but somehow was unable to articulate, whether the quote was in the seeker's ballpark, etc.

I realize that for you personally, having already achieved significant success in this industry, this ranking system is not that worthwhile. However...

I believe that this ranking system has the ability to--especially given a variety of auditions that actually get ranked and a variety of quoted price ranges--for a talent to see GENERALLY how well-received his talent is likely to be in the VO community at large; whether or not they are on the right track, whether they have a ways to go in their development, have need to do some gentle tweaking perhaps, or just realize that VO is just never going to happen for them.

Tom Pagnotti · **Voice Talent** Joined: 18 Jul 2007 Posts: 220

The new system beats the old – but I’m still not paying a lot of attention to it... because I tend to agree it means nothing in the real world.

It does however mean something in the way V123 treats talents:

Good stats mean you get first crack at auditions.

I’m in the 87 percentile – and because of that, often I’ll be among the first ten or so to audition.

Why is that important? Look at the voice seekers profiles - how many actually review more than 50 or 60% of the auditions that come in? Not many.

To me, just being heard via V123 or TOS is key to booking… and I’m booking now more than ever before via both of these sites.

Diane Havens · **Voice Talent** Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 1281

Yes, Tom -- that's right. And if you don't rank in the top 25 percent, your success here can be reduced considerably for just the reason you mention. I wonder if those under the 75 percentile or so figure that one out whether they'd stay -- and that might cut down on the paid subscription numbers quite a bit.

Lee Gordon · **Voice Talent** Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 1549

As much as we hate to get them, I think the low ratings we get are possibly the most useful information we can distill from this new system. It was not so the old way when we got all warm and fuzzy over getting a 5 and all pissed off about getting a 1 and didn't really have much in the way of real information.

But look at Scott's collection of stats. They show he's the top condender in nearly half the projects he auditioned for. Does this really surprise anyone? We know he's a proven talent and those stats tend to be consistent with that. Interestingly, of his four #1s, two are "Likely," one is "Considering" and one is "Maybe." This tells me that these words are not merely a one-to-one translation on the part of Voice123.

But the most useful number for Scott in that whole collection could be the #51 out of 63. Scott probably went out on a limb on that one and submitted something that was out of his normal "strike zone" -- maybe a hard sell spot or a wacky character. This might cause him to think twice before answering a similar lead in the future.

And what if you are a Voice Talent who submits demos for most any project that comes along and you get back a dozen rankings that are all way down toward the bottom of the pack? Some of us (and we don't necessarily know who we are) may not be quite as ready to be doing this for a living as we thought we were. A preponderance of negative rankings and few or no positive ones could be a bit of a wake-up call.

Diane Havens · **Voice Talent** Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 1281

My personal favorite was the one where I had #1 out of 87 and LIKELY HIRING and heard nothing from the seeker.

Scott Pollak · Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008, 21:01 (GMT) Post subject:

Claire Dodin · **Voice Talent** Joined: 16 Aug 2005 Posts: 400

They haven't hired you yet, Scott! Very Happy

It has happened to me several times to get hired months after the audition; actually, I completed a job today for a client who I auditioned for 2 years ago!
It is a beautiful page to have! mega grin

Diane Havens · **Voice Talent** Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 1281

Well, Scott, a note would have been nice, don't ya think? Laughing

I only have two pages remaining of my old auditions, and soon I won't be able to see my pretty pages anymore.

Wow, Claire, your clients have good memories -- did any of them tell you what the hold up was?

It's true -- you never know...

Oh, I forgot to ask -- Scott, that one where you ranked lower -- have you figured out why? Is Lee's theory correct?