Not Getting Paid by My Very First Client!

Deby Cedars · **Voice Talent** Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 1482

Sid I'm so glad you chimed in on this one, since we both do jingles. Jingles that are sung and voiceovers that are spoken are like apples and oranges. You may find them in the same fruit basket, but they are different fruit.

I wanted to ask you, doesn't price and number of recordings play a role in your pay pall money request....or invoice policy.

I mean what if they want 60 days, but they also want 4 separate distinctly different original jingles with in that same 60 days?

Also (if you want to answer this privately go ahead) What about price? I mean if you go to a 5 star restarant where it's $30 a plate, you sit down and eat first. If you buy the bargain basement 99c burrito at Taco Bell you pay up front.

I have not been on V123 for long, but from what I've experienced so far, I've come to the conclusion that if they can't pay you atleast $50 with in a two week period, there is serious doubt in my mind as to whether they can or will pay you at all.

Sid Whatley · Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007, 15:27 (GMT) Post subject:

I have a very close relationship with all of my clients & I trust them 100%. They are all established corporations and each has a different time-period for payment. The bottom line is....they always pay sooner or later. No big deal.

When it comes to a NEW client I've never worked with before and I'm producing a new custom jingle I always ask for 50% up front. Pretty straight ahead and the reputable ones never balk.

Deby Cedars · **Voice Talent** Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 1482

THANKS SID....I NEEDED TO HEAR THAT. respekt

Sherry Theus · **Voice Talent** Joined: 11 Mar 2007 Posts: 2

Lisa, the same thing happened to me before I went on hiatus during the summer. A jerk with an express shipping company in Texas requested my services for his phone messaging system. I provided a partial of his script (as agreed) and requested payment ... never saw it. I was hurt. It was my first job -- so I thought.

Well, after reading everything here I've found a couple of things that I will apply provided I get more work ... I like the 50-pre/50-post and I like Mr. Gordon's approach too. Honestly, I prefer the 100% up-front but realistically, I'd like to build a rating and I'm guessing that the 50/50 would be fair ...

Let me know your thoughts. Your guidance and advice would be greatly appreciated.

Yours very truly,

Sherry

Allison Scussel · **Voice Talent** Joined: 25 Apr 2007 Posts: 928

I don't know if seekers have the same habits as national agencies, but as a traffic manager I see often bills take up to 120 days to get paid. Invoices do get "lost" or "misplaced". Alot of my time is spent emailing or faxing copies of invoices that had been previously sent out. Eventually, they all get paid.
As a talent, I've been lucky so far and get paid pretty quickly.

J.S. Gilbert

The phenomenon of clients dealing direct with talent (at least with regards to business matters) is a relatively new one and still represents a relatively small amount of the overall voice jobs that are performed.

I've said it before, but this is a business. Whether you don't spend much time at all or spend 20 hours a day, if you ask for money, it's a business.

Talent agents will usually qualify prospective clients and for their paltry 10 or 15%, bill and collect on the actor's behalf. They also negoitate fees, contracts and other business affairs.

If you don't run bookings through an agent or don't have one, then this aspect of your business rests firmly on your shoulders.

It's another reason why smart talent don't sell their services too cheaply. There are all types of ongoing expenses involved with your business. Bad debts are actually one of them, although there is much one can do to help prevent them.

As far as the anologies of paying for your meal before or after you eat it. What one needs to understand is that the prevailing attitude is that the acceptable form for billing is still to extend 30 days net billing for non-union voice over jobs.

As a hirer of talent, if an actor were to tell me they wanted to be paid fully up front or even 50% up front, I would simply realize that this "actor" is someone who doesn't understand how business is conducted and I would go to my next choice on the list.

Under certain circumstances, I might pay the talent immediately after a gig, but never before.

I have heard of a a few producers that will pay 50% up front. Most of them seem to be the ones with lower paying engagements. I have never heard of a producer paying 100% up front. If you can con one out of some dough before you even record, more power to you, but don't bother responding to any of my audition posts.

Use tried and true procedures that any "smart" business might employ when extending billing to a client, along with the same level of business sense regarding other aspects of your voiceover business.

Allen Brown · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007, 01:15 (GMT) Post subject:

David Oxford · **Voice Talent** Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 505

J.S. Gilbert · Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007, 18:45 (GMT) Post subject: let's go a bit into detail

Okey dokey. Hopefully I can answer these questions and understand that I am mostly the messenger. I wear a lot of different hats in this business and I'd like to think it provides me with a unique perspective, but I am a voice actor first and foremost. Unfortunately, actors don't usually get much feedback from anyone in this business, aside from other actors and "teachers".

Consider the many t.v. shows, movies, commercials and many other projects produced under a union contract; also a fair amount of legitimate theater. Most of this is paid for by payroll companies, who bill the client on behalf of the actor. There's also a considerable amount of work that is done that is not covered via performing union contracts. Much of this billing is handled by agents on behalf of the actor.

Also consider radio station employees that read spots. This work is billed in most cases by the station, who in turn pays the talent.

Consider the internet is a relatively new phenomenon and that a very small fraction of commerce in voice-over is being handled through it. Some of this work is billed by third partys for the actor, but most of it is billed directly by the talent to the person or company that has engaged their services.

Internet casting and remote recording is the fastest growing aspect of the voiceover business, but it is still very fractional when considering the overall spectrum of work being performed.

At one time v.o. talent recorded on reel to reel and this required a high degree of precision throughout the process. Changes were not as easy to execute. Nowadays, even some neophyte voice talent have the skills to splice out breaths, pops and put together technically brilliant work. This has changed the industry and will continue to change the industry as newer software programs and hardware will make things easier and easier.

ISDN, a relatively costly industry standard is still intact because of the hundreds or thousands of professional studios that employ it to maintain a grasp on dialog recording. We will see this aging dinosaur crumble and cost-efficient simple methods for high quality remote recording will be implemented in its place.

Today though, we are the pioneers of internet auditioning and recording. And there is a saying that "you can tell the pioneers because they are the ones with the arrows in their backs."

Lots of bugs still need to be worked out, not the least of which is getting acceptance by those in the industry whom internet casting threatens most- established recording studios, the unions and major market players.

It's very hard to guesstimate what percentage of paying voiceover work is actually being doled through the web, but it is increasing. Currently, it still represents the very tip of the iceberg.

Part of the big problem is that the role of voice talent is becoming far more complex and yet, the marketplace doesn't seem to want to recognize this and most internet v.o. work seems to pay fractional to the "traditional" marketplace.

When I entered this industry, you took some acting classes, studied a little bit of sound theory (maybe) and learned different things depending upon who in the biz you worked for and hung out with. You got an agent, slept til noon, went out a few times a week and auditioned and when you booked something, you went to a studio.

You didn't need a home studio. You didn't need to be able to self-direct (to the level you now do). You didn't need to know how to engineer. You didn't have to market yourself (well noit as diligently), You didn't need to know how to use a computer - let alone bill someone. And even without the need to be adept at all of those things, still only 2 - 3% of all of the people that tried to make a living as voice talent failed.

It's a lot harder now, so you do the math. A producer told me that there are probably more people trying to make a living at voiceover in San Francisco alone than there was in the entire state of California 20 years ago. And yes, there certainly are tons more opportunities than there were 20 years ago for voice talent, but when you combine the increased competition, levels of nepotisim in the various industry segments, decreased overall economy (despite the rise in union scale payments) and other considerations, it is still a rarity for anyone entering this business to reach any level of self-support.

Unfortunately, we all hear about the guys with the national commercials, the Don LaFointaine's and other top talent and we don't get a picture of the many thousands of people who struggle to make it and wind up with souvenir demos that sit on their shelves. Many more work ocassionally and live at a much lower socio-economic level than they might enjoy. I have seen people lose their homes, get divorced and disappear into the "good night", in the process of chasing the elsuive voice-over dollar.

To date, nobody has written a book on voiceover entitled "I spent $30,000 on classes and stuff and only earned $863 as a voice talent." If they did, it would be an interesting read, but unfortunately not a very good sell. The many teachers of voice over will use the word lucrative enough to get you to take as many classes as they can cram down your throat.

Canon to the left of us, canon to the right of us, Into the Valley of death rode the valliant voice-over wannabe, or something like that.

So as the "pioneers" in this new online acting community, there is one single word of advice that will support anyone "vigilence".

How do you know that someone isn't going to just use an audition without paying you? You don't

How can you be sure that someone is going to pay you? You don't

How can you be sure that anything is legit? You don't

Unfortunatley and in particualr with the case of V123, they allow the audition poster to remain anonymous. Thus, personal due diligence can't usually even come into play when auditioning. Even then, if someone isn't anonymopus, for $217 or less, they can get themselves a spiffy business name and web site and you wouldn't know if it was an 8 year old collecting voices for his personal video game or someone publishing a game for EA.

After an audition, when you are informed someone wishes to hire you, you now have to switch hats and become accounts receivable department. Most producers expect to be extended terms. If you do so, then make sure you get whatever information you need to feel comfortable in extending terms.

This is where a generall understanding of "business" KICKS IN. It's often a poor idea to have the talent also be the person taking care of business. (That's right, that's why there are agents and managers.)

So perhaps it works like this: You talk to the client and agree to acept the work and inform them that your business manager will contact them. Then you have your wife, husband, brother, or guess what - your agent, contact them to take care of the business details.

For those of you booking some work already, what a great way to get an agent. "Hi, blah, blah, agency. I have a bunch of clients I do voice acting for and I need someone to negotitate my deals and take a nice cut for themselves."

I think that the mistake most seem to be making is that they think Voice123 and some other online entities are some sort of place to "learn". That these are great places to practice and to make mistakes. In fact, this type of marketing approach, for the most part, is really best suited to the absolute sharpest and most prepared talent. Unfortunately, some of the players who think it's okay to offer $75 for a fully produced radio commercial or others who offer $50 or $100 for jobs that used to pay considerably more seem to skew things a bit.

I understand the mentality for some; I've been spending $400 to take clases and learn, certainly getting paid $25 is better or the mentality of the person who is retired and living in rural America, to whom $25 or $50 is a darn nice chunk of change.

Time will tell if this all goes the route of eBay and becomes primarily price driven or who knows. Perhaps we all offer nifty little 50 cent off coupons in the Sunday Supplement of our local newspaper. Time will tell and only time will tell.

For the duration, keyword is vigilence.

I know this response was overly lengthy. There is no good short answer. In fact, there is no good long answer. There is however, a lot to think aboout.

--j.s.