The V/O scam!

David Oxford · **Voice Talent** Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 505

Greg:

Uhhhh, pardon me for being dense.....but exactly to WHOM are your comments directed??? You simply refer to "you" in the very-lengthy post and I tried to go back and match up some of the things you 'quoted' to some of the posts in the thread but couldn't seem to figure out who you were talking to/about.

Then again, it's been a long week and I'm pretty tired so maybe I just missed something that's plain to others.

The point is: it's helpful to include quotes from the posts to which you're responding so others can figure out what you mean. I'm not being hateful about it, nor disrespectful at all....just trying to be helpful.

David

Melba Sibrel · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008, 05:17 (GMT) Post subject:

David...like you I was totally nonplussed. Who the heck is Greg going off on? Then I clicked on Todd's link a post or two above, and he's talking about an article Todd posted there expressing wariness over large scale conventions for vo. My opinion is that Todd's post didn't come close to exciting such vigorous emotion.

But then I'm too far away and poor to go to anybody's convention...and couldn't really care less at that! Laughing

J.S. Gilbert · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008, 05:46 (GMT) Post subject: Frustrating

To anyopne in question, to me it seems quite apparent that Greg's response is to the post immediately before his, in which Todd has placed a link to his personal website and a lengthy written piece regarding his personal opinion of V123, etc.

This is an interesting profession that has seen many, many changes. Inevitably, when there is change, some will gain and others will not. In an industry that has thousands of people vying for every dollar of revenue, common sense would tell you that most will fail.

To have something and to feel as though you have lost it causes frustration. To attempt something and not succeed causes frustration. To feel as though your profession has become downgraded can cause frustration. To feel rejected is frustrating. To feel devalued is frustrating. To feel part of a dying art is frustrating. To invest thousands of dollars to try and enter a profession and have almost nothing to show for it is frustrating. To audition time and time again and not get any jobs ius frustrating.

I believe I have expressed my frustration here many times, not always in a nice or constructive manner. I have however always tried to contribute and be supportive of those who asked for my help.

I read Mr. Schick's writing and there is some of what he says that I can agree with. There is much that I disagree with.

This however may not be the point

The point I'm afraid is that everything about us is changing, it would appear, except for the way that we think.

As a woodworker, I am a hobbyist and that it would seem is okay. I don't have any allusions to making money at woodworking. I also attend the occasional woodworking show, which often ends up in me purchasing CD's, books, tools and other things. I don't feel out of place. Old seasoned woodworkers offer suggestions and tips and there are many of us without advanced skills who feel perfectly comfortable.

Some of the CD's and books are better than others. Nobody at these shows requires any type of licensing or certification to write a book or teach a workshop. And as unlikely as it may seem, I've ocassionally felt ripped off on a purchase.

This seems to work, because we understand this scenario.

Unfortunately, when it comes to modeling and acting and some other creative pursuits, it doesn't seem so cut and dry. Articles are written that seem to center on the odd person or persons that is making the big bucks. so many teachers and writers and others want to push home the fact that a single commercial can pay residuals of $100,000 or more. Big stars now do voices for cartoons and feature animation and we want to be like them.

Chasing the dream.

But then I have also said "The nicest thing about banging your head against the wall is stopping."

Voice123 and voices-com and ilk are not classrooms. People who are responsible for getting work done post real jobs there. Actors who are serious about their careers and invest in learning and improving their craft audition there.

When an audition is open to 50 submissions and all of the working actors are working and can't respond in minutes to the posting, it closes, filled with auditions from many who are "practicing".

Online casting is a relatively new phenomenon and some of its pioneers are trying to work out the kinks. It will be a long and continual process. Online casting however is the only form of casting where there isn't at least one other person besides the actor who thinks they should be auditioning. Think about that for a second.

Your agent sends you a script becuase they think you have a shot at booking it. You are invited to audition by a casting director. A client hears your demo and asks you to submit.

This is not the case with online casting.

The mere act of auditioning does little to improve an actor, except for perhaps microphone technique and audio engineering. How do you mysteriously get better when there isn't a mechanism for correcting mistakes?

Even the biggest name actors in Hollywood have teachers. You have to have someone who can offer critiques and help you improve.

So to all of you who are frustrated, let's quit blaming everyone else. Things will continue to change and so some of us will need to adapt. But for those of you entering this profession, have some courtesy. Understand the basics. Realize the consequences for your actions. And whatever you decide to do with regards to learning your craft, think long and hard about spending your money and do not jump into anything.

Just because somebody says they're the best teacher since sliced white bread doesn't mean much. The 12 year old down the block from me has a website that's nicer than General Foods. Also, just becuase a person posts alot doesn't make them an expert either.

Find someone who you trust, and get recommendations from them. Check with more than one person. Be vigilant to keep yourself from getting ripped off.

It is your responsability. Whether all of the established voice actors silently loathe you (or not so silently) shouldn't matter. It is your responsability to act responsibly.

As they used to say in the video stores "Be kind and rewind".

I also think it is a very smart idea to make some sort of a business plan. Have some sort of reasonable expectation for yourself, do what you can to try and succeed. Make sure you have fun in the process. And if and when it becomes apparent that you will not be able to fashion a career out of voiceover, then for god's sake, have the good sense to quit. You'll forgive me, but I have no respect for the 35 - 45 year olds who tell me they are voice actors and routinely borrow money from their parents because they simply refuse to understand that 99.9% of those that try to make it won't. It doesn't make you a bad person. But in my opinion, having a spouse bust thier ass and support you or taking $5,000 from elderly parents to pursue your career makes you contemptable in my eye. Don't let it get to the point where you owe all of your friends money or have left a good profession for so long that you can't go back to it.

Despite what you may have heard or any thoughts to the contrary, I do wish you all good luck.

And if you've read this far, remember this is just my opinion.

David Oxford · **Voice Talent** Joined: 09 Feb 2007 Posts: 505

JS:

Bravo! I haven't been on the forum much in awhile but it's nice to see your words of insight and wisdom come shining through again. I know it's "just your opinion" but considering your background & knowledge of the business, your opinion is more than "just an opinion."

Thanks for taking time (when you don't have to) to share your thoughts. I think you pretty-much hit the nail on the head with everything you've said here!

David

Diane Havens · **Voice Talent** Joined: 09 Jun 2006 Posts: 1281

Well said, J.S.

Robert Jadah · **Voice Talent** Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 2627

The JS, of course, stands for 'Justly Said.'
It is my opinion that the cannibalism in VO is embarassing, but I can attest to the fact that JS Gilbert is the antithesis of this sad phenomena.
While he won't boast of it (much), I've heard from literally dozens of VO's who have tapped his expertise and helpfulness. In fact, I've done so myself.
Not that I'm nominating him for a Nobel prize or anything; I mean, his typing skills are suspect, I hear that he combs his hair with burrowing rodents, and he uses bombast like most of use oxygen.

But he's real.

Voice On!

Todd Schick · **Voice Talent** Joined: 21 Jun 2003 Posts: 63

Hey J.S.,

Couldn't have said it better myself; a well-crafted, sober and thoughtful response. There is not a single thing I disagree with what you said. Well done.

While my message(s) to the VO industry may be somewhat opinionative at times, I am entitled to that. I also feel obligated to express those opinions because the truth of the matter is, I was honestly one of the very first VO artists out there in 1995, building my website and studio; my experience alone dictates that I share with others as often as I can.

I look at the VO "industry" and see it for what it truly is; tremendous growth in a very short period of time (less than 5 years) in large part due to two websites that, I feel, are selling dreams. In doing so, they've roundly laid waste to a once-thriving (little) VO industry and in the process, only succeeded in creating an environment of mediocrity.

And then....there's the issue of all these people seeing the growth....and taking advantage of those who have already been ripped off. Conferences organized by casting websites with nothing but coaches, trainers and authors calling themselves "professional", all the while licking their chops at the MONEY that they'll make off those nice fat, juicy rosters at Voice123 and Voices-com.

This, I find reprehensible. By all means, go out there and make money.....(hey, the last time I checked this was a capitalist society), just don't lie to others to make a living. By lying, I mean.....don't try to sell a service under the guise of wanting to "help" others. This, was the jist of the original post, a voice talent speaking out about those scam artists out there who are telling VO talent out there that they have talent (when they clearly don't) and merely take their money. To me, I see little or no difference between those scam artists and pay-for-membership websites like Voice123. They've just found a better way to do it, all the while avoiding accountability.

Via reading articles on my website regarding this subject, I can't tell you how many people have sent me an e-mail, expressing a heartfelt "thank you" for opening their eyes to the real truth about the industry. What a truly wonderful feeling. THAT, my friends, is the reason why I share my opinions here and on my website. If I can help at least 1 person from getting ripped off......then writing those 160 pages was worth every last second of my time.

Deby Cedars · **Voice Talent** Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 1482

My soil critic character in L & R is bombastic!

Sorry whenever I learn a new word I like to use it immediately. Laughing

Reminds me of that audition I had where I had to say comcastic.

Scott Pollak · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008, 18:01 (GMT) Post subject:

Todd Schick · **Voice Talent** Joined: 21 Jun 2003 Posts: 63

Yeah....something like that......hey, I've only had 2 cups of coffee.....LOL!

But.....thanks for pointing that out...I'll correct.

Lee Kanne · **Voice Talent** Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 129

J.S. Gilbert

Well it would appear after chucking in my 2 cents, there is a little bit of change left in the old pocket.

Thanks for the kind words after my last post. Quite honestly, I am never sure how my ramblings will be met.

It's no secret that I have some contempt for those in our profession who make fine livings from voice talent and are perhaps somewhat less than honest in the process. Does that mean they have to give every would be student a disclaimer stating that they are aware that chances are good they will spend several thousand dollars and only wind up with a souvenir CD of themselves, which after 3 months they will no longer have the stomach to listen to?

No, but I do hear many talks, books, papers and other devices that get into the minds and ears of wanabe vocalizer that talk about "the big bucks", "the path to making money", etc.

It's easy to rationalize our behavior and since the role of the voice actor is often one without much praise, it's easy to see why the oft adoration that a teacher or coach receives can be a welcome change.

As I have mentioned before, those who don't make it in this industry are mostly mute. They don't go to parties and warn people of unscrupulous programs or sit down and write posts about how they weren't able to make it.

Any complaints I have about Savvy or many other sites is that it would appear all too often that any posts that aren't ra, ra, ra good job, way to go are often met with hostility.

I've had a nummber of pros and producers listen to quite a few of the posted auditions on Savvy. In particualr to one's that received praise from the peanut gallery. One producer said "It's like hanging your kids pooped in diapers on the line for all your neighbors to see and having them stand and cheer for you."

Write me and I'll give you his email so you can send him nast email. I'm just the messenger.

Unfortunaely, this business is about getting or not getting a gig. You usually don't know if you were 2nd choice or three hundred and second choice. Even the attempts at V123 and introducing a rating system are wrught with problems.

So let's face it, the easiest way to become a millionaire in voiceover is to start with one million and ten thousand dollars.

I should also say that there is a lot about Todd's diatribe that I do agree with. Perhaps my medication is better this week, so I'll just leave it at that.

But with regards to "scam artists" telling people they havetalent, my take is a bit different. The concept of anyone telling any person that they have or don't have talent to me is a bit of a problem.

As someone who makes some of his money casting talent, advising clients what talent to use and directing talent, there are times when Ithin I might be qualified to listen one by one to the conga line of newly annointed voice actors and magically say "you have talent and you don't"

The simple truth is that if I had a dollar for every time one of my clients picks one of my last choices for talent, well, I'd have a lot of dollars.

As a working voice actor myself, I ocassionally will admit to having the bad audition. Okay perhaps atrocious, disgustingly bad, what were you thinking, my god you're stinking up the joint bad audition. And if any "pro" tells you that they don't have those days, then they are simply lying or they ain't a pro.

So my guess is that despite the strength of the Gilbert brand in some circles, I'm certain there are a few in our industry who probably think my chops are a tad suspect.

But I'll go a step forward and just mention one name - Jason Alexander. Now, if prior to Seinfeld you had brought Mr. Alexander around to me and asked me to evaluate his potenital as a voice actor, I'd have suggested he get a job at a deli.

The point is that this industry is constantly hiring different types. And as for talent, well that's something that can get aquired. Listen to the radio and t.v. and you'll find everything from nasally winers to deadpan gen xers to Brooklyny fegedaboutits.

Some of whom are doing quite well at this business and many of whom I think are pretty talentless.

The problem then lies with finding the right person or person to work with. Having some sort of direction to go in. Realizing that you're probably not going to make it. Deciding on some way to go about your journey and still trying to have fun. Figuring out who is blowing smoke up your posterior. Making sure that no matter what you're not taking advantage of loved one's or friends as you pursue your dream. Taking care of bizness.

And best of all, knowing when to toss in the towel. Now, if you are thinking about this whole v.o. thing as a hobby, then there is a totally differnet road you can take and keep it fun and inventive. It just won't be profitable. And if that's not good enough, then try something else, maybe on-camera acting or woodworking or painting or any of a hundred other creative pursuits.

Melba Sibrel · Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008, 22:10 (GMT) Post subject:

"So let's face it, the easiest way to become a millionaire in voiceover is to start with one million and ten thousand dollars."

J.S., could you please burn that into some wood and send it to me? I'll take a gross, please. Laughing

Scott Pollak

Lee Gordon · **Voice Talent** Joined: 22 Oct 2004 Posts: 1549

Make that $1,010,200. Voice123 and Voices dot com have gone up a hundred bucks each this year.