You Want the truth?

J.S. Gilbert · Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006, 23:07 (GMT) Post subject: You Want the truth?

Let’s actually give out some truth.

First of all, I don’t sell books or make any parts of my living exploiting the dreams and hopes of other actors. I have been at this voiceover thing “awhile” and while I would love to earn more money, I manage to make an okay enough living at v.o. and have done so for quite some time. I have nothing to gain from this posting except that I am some what upset about all of the flatout lies I hear being told in these and other chatrooms. I'm sure to get some hate mail from this. Please read the whole post before you go get your lynching posse ready.

What I am about to tell you is the somber reality of this business and point out some of the tricks being used by actors to get work. (Yes, I use them too) This isn’t “my version of reality”, but the way it is. Stop for a moment and think if what I say here makes sense compared to what you have read elsewhere.

1. Can you make a living at voiceover?

Simply put, yes. However verifiable statistics show that less than 5% of the members of the performing unions, SAG and AFTRA earn over $5,000 per year. Most of these people also have agents and many also compete for on-camera and print work as well. Experts agree that when you toss in all of the “voice actors” who are not in the unions, we might be looking at 1 – 2% of them making over $5,000 per year. When you consider that this category includes all the folks like Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock, (most of the former cast of Frasier), sports figures, politicians, 15 minute wonders, and the rest of the world’s pseudo-celebrities, one might wonder just how many people here are actually making over $5,000 per year at voice-over. Now, that’s just $5,000 and for most of us, $5,000 is not a livable wage. SO I believe the real answer to this question is NO.

2. You’re actually dumb enough to seek advice from this group?

Recently I saw a post from someone new to voiceover, who asked the question regarding making a sufficient annual wage. One of his responses was from an individual who claimed that while his first year was only around $20,000, he was now earning over 6 figures. I wondered who this voiceover superstar was, since I should be aware of somebody earning $100,000 or more in this business, especially one who does it predominantly online. I Googled his name and found site after site that referenced his name, but they were all promotional sites. Sites with his demos, sites where he responded to posts, sites where he talked about audio gear. There wasn’t a single site that actually referenced a single job this person had done. If this person were actually earning 6 figures, wouldn’t one job be referenced? A further check showed that their rate sheet had them at $50 per job. Now, I’m no math genius, but wouldn’t that mean they’d need to do 2,000 jobs per year to earn 6 figures. Now, you tell me how they have the time to promote themselves, do enough auditions to book 2,000 jobs and actually do the jobs themselves, let alone the billing, initial communication, etc. Gee, you’d really like to believe that they were making that kind of dough, but it just aint possible. And while we’re at it, why would any v.o. stuperstar working that much keep themselves priced at about 1/5th (or less) the going rate? Sounds kind of what someone new might do, or someone desperate. Go ahead, since you’re dying to know, my name is “J.S. Gilbert”. Google my name and you’ll also see quite a few of my attempts at marketing, but you’ll also find 4 times as many pages that reference real work that I’ve done. You’ll also find sites with the names of people at Disney, Electronic Arts, Sony and numerous ad agencies who know who I am and for whom I have worked. Oh, you’re not going to catch me making claims to how much I make or how often I work. It’s not important. If you find encouragement that I am someone who is making it as a voice actor, then great. If you’re really smart, you’ll get honest about this business and either go get a real job or get some real marketable skills.
The big question you need to really ask yourself is; “Do I want to take advice from people who represent the bottom 1% of their industry?” Because that’s what you do when you ask and accept advice on pretty much any of these chat boards. Why not try and find someone in the top 10% of the industry? Ahhhhhh, that might actually require a little effort.

3. Why would somebody answer a post and lie about making $100,000?

You see, this person answers hundreds, if not thousands of posts. If they think they can get in something about their voiceover career in a post about whether plastic or paper bags should be preferred at the grocer’s, they will. The idea is that maybe someone who needs a voice actor will stumble along their name. This person will see the hundreds of sites that the actor is referenced on and read enough about the propaganda to think that this actor is worth hiring. It also raise the actor higher in gerneal search engine searches. Maybe even other actors on internet communities will believe the b.s. and start doing link swapping or otherwise play up the virtues of the actor. You know what they say about the truth; if enough people believe something, then it becomes truth. It’s commonly referred to as viral marketing. Right now, one of the online v.o. communities has a top 500 list of actors. My name started out in the top 10 and has dropped down to 50th or so in a couple of weeks. I just don’t feel like getting everyone I know to go to this site, register and vote for me. I started out in the top 10 because when it started, it was only based on actual feedback from talent hirers. I had no idea that this list would be published. Once the actors found out about it, they went to great lengths to get everyone and their grandma to “vote” for them. I’m guessing a lot of responses from folks with hotmail accounts. You want to stuff the ballot box, go ahead. I’ve got better things to do. I might wind up losing a job opportunity or 2, but oh well. Aren’t you glad you’ve read this? I’ve already given you more marketing advice than you’d get from a $500 actors workshop.

I’ll be posting more “truths” on here soon. I just thought for the New Year I would ruffle a few feathers and maybe also be helpful to a few of you. For those of you who really do know how to act and are either working hard to become a productive member of our community or already are, I hope you will understand my intentions and that while there is always room for another good person in any industry, it would also be nice if some of them would just go away.

Robert Jadah · Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006, 23:33 (GMT) Post subject: no b.s from j.s

Mr Gilbert:
Thank you for closing out the year with some straight poop. What a refreshing splash of cold water.
The six-figure man is obviously enjoying life in a parallel universe, and those of us scrambling to fill a $100. regional radio ad for grouting are obviously small fish swimming close to shore.
There are, however, legions of us who stare reality in the face and blankly confess that we're hobbling along with the magic $5,000 yearly income, which I've mentioned elsewhere is actually the documented 12-month average for UNIONIZED actors.
And - look - the nice thing is we're doing something we love and sharing our views and hard-won tips with each other. That's not stupid; that's the warm side to humanity.
Dreams also fall into that category.
We're also pouring money into Digidesign and DigitalJuice and voice coaching and seminars and how-to books and microphones and interfaces and web sites, and basically feeding the system we have fun in.
There's no harm in that.
But no, by Jimminy, there's no harm in reading some cold, hard truths either.
Thanks for that; and I do wish you a very happy New Year.
Voice On!
Robert Jadah

Scott Pollak · Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006, 23:53 (GMT) Post subject:

As always, Robert, nicely put. I read J.S.'s post and hesitated to reply to it. I would suppose in virtually any industry the odds of being one of the top money-makers is slim. Look at basic corporations... the very few, elite CEOs get multi-million dollar bonuses while the multitude of hard-working blue-collar laborers for that same company struggles to figure out how they'll make the next car payment.

So maybe it's true that most people won't make it. They'll figure that out at some point down the road when the jobs aren't rolling in and they need to figure out what else they'll do to pay the bills.

And yes, I agree, too, that we need to have a dose of reality thrown in here on sites like this so that people realize what they're up against, as opposed to telling every Tom, Dick and Harriett who posts a demo.... "Oh, get some training and you'll do just fine!" (which we're all guilty of). This was somewhat of the impetus behind my post titled "Why do so many think it's so EASY?"

The thing that bothers me about this particular post is that it seems to be taking a personal attack on another poster on this site, plus I wonder why someone who apparently DOES make a good living at it spent a lot of time writing such a long, negative diatribe. J.S., I'm not taking a shot at you; I'm merely stating what I thought as I read your post... well-written, astute, and I'm certain it's accurate... nonetheless I had to wonder why so much time put into disenchanting people? Especially those select ones on this site who might actually BE part of that 1% who will, eventually make it big. The realities of the market and the business will weed out the chaffe.

Just my two cents worth. And we all know what THAT'S worth.
For me... I'll keep pursuing the dream. And have a blast doing it! Very Happy

Peace.

Louis Tristan · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007, 00:46 (GMT) Post subject: What's eating Gilbert Great?

Sounds like Amrosia from the Apprentence. Everybody did me wrong...
No need to be angry... every dog has his day... sounds like you had your time up in the charts and now hit rock bottom. We've all been there....life is a struggle. I thought this was the fun forum. I had my moment of fame when I won the one year free membership... now I won't win anything for 2 years..

However it's interesting what you mention about the $100,000.00 man...
That's a lot of zeros.

I know podcaster who make more than that

anyone watch www.diggnation.com

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_33/b3997001.htm

Thanks you for exposing the frauds...Looking forward to more secrets of the trade....

How am not sure because # 2 reads

2. You’re actually dumb enough to seek advice from this group?

Does that mean you too? Should we not take your advice?

I am with stupid!

Russ McLamb · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007, 00:53 (GMT) Post subject:

Mr. Gilbert,

I have to honestly say I am dumbfounded by your response. I take it I'm the guy you were talking about. How you can go on that kind of rant about someone you don't even know is beyond me. But that's beside the point. When I first read the post I wasn't mad nor did I get upset. I was actually sad. Sad about how someone is this great business could have that kind of view about it and actually pretend to know anything about me. All I did was respond with an honest answer to someones question. Whether you choose to believe it or not really is of no concern to me. What I do take exception to is you basically calling me a liar. Everything I stated in that post was true. I'm not saying it's easy or that it happens overnight. But it CAN happen. Who am I too tell a person that they can't make it in this business? They asked if you could make a decent living at it, and I responded with an honest answer. Oh and my rate card isn't listed anywhere, not even on my own site, so I don't know where you got the $50 rate from. I do do some stuff for other sites at that rate, but that's not my rate card. I will say this, I have no interest in your future "truths" since this one was far from it.

Russ

Todd Ellis · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007, 01:19 (GMT) Post subject:

Wow. That's quite a post. I'm glad you got all that vitriol out before the new year starts. voiceover is just like any other business and in any other business 95% of start-ups fail in the first year. Many of us on this forum may not be back next year - or the year after that - but it's no different any where else. I watched three coffee shops close this year. But all that doesn't mean we shouldn't give it a shot.

I don't make $100k/year ... yet. But I do make enough to pay the mortgage, car payments & light bill plus put three kids through private school. My business play DOES call for $100k/year in 2009 and I'm on track to make it. But you never know ... we'll see.

Marketing methods are constantly changing - lead, follow or get out of the way. Should I scratch my demo into an aluminum cylinder, tie it to a pony, slap it's ass and point him toward New York? Viral Marketing is part of Steve Jobs' marketing plan - as well as Honda (as we've seen on this site) - Lays - and hundreds of companies with MUCH larger marketing budgets that mine - so why not grab on to something that WORKS?!?

If you google my name you won't find much. That doesn't mean I don't get checks in the mail. That doesn't mean that every now and then a high paying, high profile job doesn't come in every now and then.

Finally - haven't I seen some names like: Rodney Saulsberry, Connie Terwilliger, Bettye Zoller pop up in this forum in the past couple of days? Pretty near the top if you ask me. ANd the peer advice ain't so bad either

Happy New Year

J.S. Gilbert

I didn't call anyone a liar. I'm just saying that as someone in this industry "it didn't make sense to me". How does somebody do 2,000 $50 a year jobs or even 1,000 $100 a year jobs. Someone who feels they fit my description took time out to write back, but didn't offer any information that might be contrary to my suppositions. I didn't name any names and given the vast number of posts, this individual could have been anonymous.

I suppose it was the proverbial straw that broke the camels' back

You want to masqerade as being helpful in order to work your way up the ladder, be my guest. I'm just saying to all the boys and girls out there that "if the glove doesn't fit, then you must acquit". If it doesn't make sense, then question it.

I'm not talking about being a "top earner", I'm talking about making enough to support yourself. If you think $5,000 is a livable annual wage, then call me, cause I have a bunch of patio work I need done. Oh and that $5,000 don't forget that goes to less than 5% of us. 95% are making less than that.

I guess what it's all about for me, is that I've grown a bit tired of seeing the lies. I'm tired of what this business is becoming. I'm tired of every time I tell someone that I'm a voice actor they say "I'm a voice actor too man or How do I get me some work as a voice actor."

For every man, women and child I know who takes the time to improve their craft, offer incredible service as a talent and has been proud of what they do, I take offense to everybody who calls themselves a vocie talent and hasn't spent a second working on their skills set.

Is there a differnece in performing v.o. for t.v. and radio spots and for corporate industrials? What about specific skills needed for cartoon, animation, nonlinear game work, telephony? Do you know what your voice sound like heavily compressed at 8bit 8k? Do you know what proximity effect is?

I worked teaching v.o. for awhile and was very concerned because I was expected to have 75% of the students sign up for additional classes. I was called out on the carpet because a student couldn't read very well and I suggested that maybe they take some classes to increase their reading abilties (and I did this very much in confidence and not to embarrass) The student told the head of the "school" that I suggested they improve their reading before taking additional v.o. classes. For that I got an earful about how hard it was to get a student to take classes and that it wasn't my place to say anything.

Yes, I still make my living for the most part doing v.o., although a bigger and bigger chunk seems to come from producing and directing audio.

I can't think of any other industry that has this level of "ease of entry".
As someobody recently told me (who didn't know what I did for a living) "It's easy... all you got to do is buy one of thesee new USB microphones, steal some scripts off the internet and make a demo and sign up with the internet places."

So, it's not bad enough that people with no acting training are clogging up the bandwidth masquerading as voice talent, they're also untrained engineers masquerading as recording engineers and untrained audio directors.

As for the "taking advice from people on here" bit. How can you seriously listen to someone who knows almost nothing about audio engineering, who doesn't do engineering as a living and barely makes any money as a voice actor with regards to recommendations as to what audio gear you should buy?

I read a book once on herbology, but I don't expect I should be answering any questions regarding health or nutrition. I fixed the p-trap under my sink a few weeks ago, perhaps I should put an ad in the yellow pages and say I'm available to do any and all plumbing.

As for me taking the time out to write these posts - It's New Year's eve. If any actors have a booking right now, then please contact me, cause clearly I should be working New Year's Eve and lack the skills to get the booking.

As a hirer of talent, I posted a job online a while back and in my listing made some references to wanting only experienced commercial voice talent (men only) with broadcast quality or near broadcast quality setups and I was specific about the age range. The posted rate of pay was $300 rfor a 60 second local spot.

Of the nearly 300 auditions, 2/3 clearly were not experienced. Their reads were considerably off, as well as other things like wandering off axis on the microphone, mumbling words, mispronuciations of relatively common words, etc. The quality of the recordings in some cases was so bad that I just had to laugh. Despite providing a script, many of the auditioners felt it sufficient to just send me a demo. Some of the demos were narrative and some were radio promo. Quite a fewe of the auditioners were clearly not in the specified age group. I even had 6 women respond who thought I might be intrigued to hear how a woman would perform the material.
And despite having mentioned the pay rate, I received offers of considerably higher amounts and considerably lower. In fact I got offers of $50, $35, and even $10

Now, should I be happy to be part of this fraternity who had perhaps 20 - 25 auditions performed within the specified parameters or should I feel less than thrilled at haning my shingle within a community where 90% could be rejected almost without listening?

Perhaps you can see my dilemna.

No, 'm not a professional voice actor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I'm wondering if there are any other pros on here that feel anywhere near the way I do. Perhaps I just need some nice strong meds. If you even agree with me slightly, I'd love to know.

Russ McLamb · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007, 02:14 (GMT) Post subject:

Mr. Gilbert,

It just seems to me that everything you've made reference to are in some of my post. If I'm wrong I apologize. I'm not a newbie, I have spent time and money training with people like Rodney Saulsberry. I have taken the time and spent the money to grow my business which not only deals with commericals and narrations but imaging as well. What I do works for me that's all I can say. I do wish you continued success.

Russ

Amy Snively · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007, 02:26 (GMT) Post subject:

Randall Bigham · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007, 03:17 (GMT) Post subject:

i was the one who asked the original question that prompted the response that has fueled your anger. i know what is stacked against me and i do not believe that "ease of entry" exists. i read somewhere that "the only place that success comes before work is in the dictionary" and i believe that. i have to admit that the jobs i have had in the past i have not put 100% of my soul into. i merely try to do what i have to do to "not get fired", but V.O. is the only thing i have found that i feel i have the most natural knack for & that deserves no less then full dedication. that is not to say that i know alot about the business, which is the reason why i am here. to show my true nerdness and quote star trek 5, we "share & gain strength from the sharing".

i plan on being part of that 1% that you speak of, your post has further fueled me, and i thank you for that. mega grin

Jim Sutton

Robert Jadah · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007, 04:52 (GMT) Post subject: Sutton NotOn

Jim:
Actually, let me rephrase that to:
Mr. S.
Since the grumbling ones seem to get that respectful honorific...
...but that microphone analogy is just silly, Jim S.
Are you really suggesting that Louis Tristan, Scott Pollak, Tyler Jones, Todd Ellis and dozens of others are unqualified to talk mics with you - despite a combined 80 years in the business - simply because their business cards right now do not read 'Sound Engineer'?
That's akin to saying you would never take political advice from Bill Clinton because he's an author now....nor heed acting tips from Tom Cruise because he's a twit now.
Nor, for that matter, read posts from people who have never volunteered anything before.
I mean, come on.
Sounds like you might be a mite elitist there, no?
Good to hear from you, though.
Voice On!
Robert Jadah

Nikki Saco · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007, 05:26 (GMT) Post subject:

Up until last November, I was a full-time medical malpractice defense paralegal, a 20-year veteran. Because I was the senior partner's senior paralegal, I had to help train a lot of paralegals and associates (new lawyers) in my division. I knew some were going to make it and I suspected some weren't. But they were all entitled to try, and they were all entitled to and got my respect for trying. And guess what, they were all called "attorneys" and "paralegals" long before they received most of their training.

The fact is, people, there are few professions where you don't attain the title before you get the training. So what makes voice over work so special? Nothing.

The first day you started doing voice overs didn't you call yourself a voice actor or voice over talent? Of course you did; it described what you were doing. How on earth does that diminish anyone's accomplishments here? Frankly, I think some of you are sounding just a bit elitist. I mean think about it: the country is run by a bunch of people who are getting on-the-job training. Sad but true.

As for getting mic advice on this forum, you could do worse. I know quite a few "experts" and they have a lot of book learning, but I need to hear from people who actually use the equipment.

Corks are popping and I'm getting pulled away from my computer. Happy New Year from the east coast! Time to party!

Joe J Thomas

Hmmmm...

Truth, fact, reality. How much is perception, or data mining to support your perception?

You can find any number of facts to support your position (negative or positive).

The truth? If you want something you have to work for it.

The odds of winning the lottery are astronomical, yet it occurs. And this is no lottery. Each of us has control over a number of factors including: attitude, training, level of professionalism, and our presentation to clients, just to name a few.

What's that you say? You want proof? Several people in this thread alone make a living doing what they love. I choose to learn from those who have made it, not listen to the nay-sayers (and believe me, there are plenty more of the latter in the "biz"!)

In the end, those that make it have a combination of attributes: drive, talent, planning, persistence, etc. None of these is a guarantee of success, but I will offer you this query: if you're up against an equivalent talent with a better attitude, guess who's more likely to get chosen for the job?

Facts? yeah, if they're real, they're not gonna change.

Truth, Reality and Perception? we make those through our outlook and choices.

I choose to win,
Joe J Thomas
www.JoeActor.com

"The odds of surviving another attack are 13,562,190,123 to 1, Captain."
-- Spock

Jim Sutton · Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007, 19:23 (GMT) Post subject: Re: Sutton NotOn