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Lee Gordon
Talent and/or Voice Producer
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 1549
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 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008, 10:29 (GMT) Post subject: |
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| Bob Bergen wrote: | | One of the things that makes this book inviting to publishers is the ability to update regularly. |
Sound like the Ross Report on steroids. 
_________________
For more voice over demos, my life story, and other foolishness, please visit my website at www.leegordonproductions.com |
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Peter O'Connell
Talent and/or Voice Producer - Voice Seeker
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008, 05:10 (GMT) Post subject: |
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Bob:
I think the book concept is fine.
Maybe I'm off the mark in the direction you want to take this book but I feel the following is an important question to ask regarding the topic you are going to write about.
In today's voice over industry, what value is there in a voice talent having an agent?
On the surface, the answer is “to help get me a voice job”. And that should be the right answer but my theory is - it isn't always the right answer. Here are a few of my reasons why:
* I believe some voice talent want an agent not only to help them get a job but also (and in some cases more so) because the VO feels just having an “agent” (any agent) gives them some imagined credibility. Now I really am a professional voice over - because I have an agent. With such silly expectations on the voice talent’s part (and it occurs often than most would care to admit with the increased frequency of newbies dipping their toes in the VO pond) the voice talents will be sorely disappointed by their newly minted relationship. A voice talent’s vocal style and marketing savvy combined with financial success (i.e. getting paid a very fair wage for your efforts) is the only thing that can establish a voice talent’s credibility. A voice talent must be very realistic in his/her expectations of their agent (one tool in your marketing tool box, not the be all and end all to voice over riches). Among the many new talents I’ve spoken with and taught, however, they are not so realistic.
* Outside of the three major markets (and probably most direct applicable to union performers in those markets) more and more the effectiveness of non-union agents are coming under question in the eyes and ears of producers (and lets save the union/non-union value analysis for another time). This question of agent effectiveness is I think is most specifically evidenced by agencies, especially those with a more regional focus, who seem to pile on so many voices to their rosters and then simply send out mass emails to all on every voice bank job they come across. As always, the disclaimer: not all agents do this, some are great but many in my professional experience some are not nearly as effective as they should be.
This problem regarding effectiveness is also evidenced by those voice over agents who today seem frighteningly less versed in their intrinsic knowledge of the voice over abilities of each of their talents, probably due to the quantity issue. (One calls their agent and IF they get through they sometimes get the vocal equivalent of a blank stare..."You're who, again? Do I represent you? Oh yes, sure, sure!"). It’s surprising given the fact that each talent on an agent’s roster is the very representation of the value of agency itself. It’s akin to a retailer not having an accurate accounting of how much product they have on the shelves. Agents should be serving as a valued sieve for the producers, securing and presenting auditions from the talents on their rosters most qualified for the role posted. Doing this correctly makes a producer’s search easier (thus providing the exact service expected…always a good thing) and thereby increases an agent’s value as a trusted resource in the eyes of the producer. Makes sense and has been the way that relationship has and should work.
In fairness, many agents may need to keep their rosters big because it’s a numbers game for them and it allows them to earn a living under their particular business model (and I fully respect how challenging that can be for them in their increasingly competitive industry). But it sure seems to me that more often than not the only filter some agents seem to use before sending out their mass job posting is "male" or "female"...then hit send. Again for union agents in NYC, LA a CHI this may not be the case. As a non union performer with multiple agents this is a trend I have noted with some disappointment.
* The effectiveness with which the internet allows voice talents to establish their own virtual store makes an agent’s job even more difficult. In effect, because of my web presence I could be considered to be in competition with my own representatives for a voice job. I believe this has been discussed on various boards, specifically because some agents were “caught” actually posting jobs for their roster of talent on mass voice over retail sites like voice 123 and TOS as well (and some voice talents were aghast). Yet from a business perspective, I understand why some agents feel they need to do this… it’s a numbers game and to do the aforementioned may give some of them a better shot at landing the job through their agency (which is their raison d'être). But given this fact, one could again reasonably ask: what is the value of having an agent?
If nothing else, our current industry environment regarding the agent/voice talent relationship recalls the thoughtful old phrase “what a tangled web we weave.”
Were one were to assume I am anti-agent based on my questions, observations and experiences expressed herein, they would be absolutely incorrect. I believe that the agent system has proven to be very profitable for many professional voice talents, including myself. I have great respect for many of my agents who are focused on the success of their talent rosters as well as providing the best possible service to any inquiring producers. For those who offer this service to me, I offer a very public thank you.
And as is the case with any service industry, some of us also have had agents that would have proven themselves more truthful if they scratched out the words “talent agent” on their business card and wrote in the word “sloth”. It’s the old 80/20 principle and it applies to agents too: 80% of your agent-related revenue comes from only 20% of your agents.
See, for voice talents, it can also be a numbers game.
By this point in this long missive, I’ve likely bored many readers and infuriated a few others (some who may be angrily checking their rolodex to see if they represent me…no problem here, if they don’t know that right away, you can easily guess where they figure in my 80/20 equation.) There are so many different angles one can look at this from and I think, Bob, your book would be well served if you looked at some of these questions from the agents’ perspective as well.
But I think you wouldn’t do your book or your readers’ justice if you only asked “how” and not at least also ask “why”?
I hope this helps everyone in their search for what I think can be (and has been for me) the establishment of some sincerely valued professional relationships with some amazingly dedicated agents.
Best always,
- Peter
_________________
- Peter
audio'connell voice over Talent
voxmarketising - the audio'connell blog and podcast
voice talent workshop |
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Hannibal Brown
Talent and/or Voice Producer
Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008, 16:38 (GMT) Post subject: Ebook |
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By the way, the idea is very good... Because no matter what to write a book is always challenging.
Why don´t you try to make your aproach through internet, promotion, distribution, sales... people who is interested can buy it through this media.
Ebooks are a big market too. Look for the new avenues plus the traditional and conservatives.
You can make surveys on the internet as well and your book can be updated periodically.
I have learned a bit in my projects and really works.
Go for it buddy.
Hannibal Brown
http://hbvoices.tripod.com
http://visionslp.tripod.com |
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Bob Bergen
Talent and/or Voice Producer
Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008, 17:19 (GMT) Post subject: |
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| Peter O'Connell wrote: | Bob:
I think the book concept is fine.
Maybe I'm off the mark in the direction you want to take this book but I feel the following is an important question to ask regarding the topic you are going to write about.
In today's voice over industry, what value is there in a voice talent having an agent?
On the surface, the answer is “to help get me a voice job”. And that should be the right answer but my theory is - it isn't always the right answer. Here are a few of my reasons why:
* I believe some voice talent want an agent not only to help them get a job but also (and in some cases more so) because the VO feels just having an “agent” (any agent) gives them some imagined credibility. Now I really am a professional voice over - because I have an agent. With such silly expectations on the voice talent’s part (and it occurs often than most would care to admit with the increased frequency of newbies dipping their toes in the VO pond) the voice talents will be sorely disappointed by their newly minted relationship. A voice talent’s vocal style and marketing savvy combined with financial success (i.e. getting paid a very fair wage for your efforts) is the only thing that can establish a voice talent’s credibility. A voice talent must be very realistic in his/her expectations of their agent (one tool in your marketing tool box, not the be all and end all to voice over riches). Among the many new talents I’ve spoken with and taught, however, they are not so realistic.
* Outside of the three major markets (and probably most direct applicable to union performers in those markets) more and more the effectiveness of non-union agents are coming under question in the eyes and ears of producers (and lets save the union/non-union value analysis for another time). This question of agent effectiveness is I think is most specifically evidenced by agencies, especially those with a more regional focus, who seem to pile on so many voices to their rosters and then simply send out mass emails to all on every voice bank job they come across. As always, the disclaimer: not all agents do this, some are great but many in my professional experience some are not nearly as effective as they should be.
This problem regarding effectiveness is also evidenced by those voice over agents who today seem frighteningly less versed in their intrinsic knowledge of the voice over abilities of each of their talents, probably due to the quantity issue. (One calls their agent and IF they get through they sometimes get the vocal equivalent of a blank stare..."You're who, again? Do I represent you? Oh yes, sure, sure!"). It’s surprising given the fact that each talent on an agent’s roster is the very representation of the value of agency itself. It’s akin to a retailer not having an accurate accounting of how much product they have on the shelves. Agents should be serving as a valued sieve for the producers, securing and presenting auditions from the talents on their rosters most qualified for the role posted. Doing this correctly makes a producer’s search easier (thus providing the exact service expected…always a good thing) and thereby increases an agent’s value as a trusted resource in the eyes of the producer. Makes sense and has been the way that relationship has and should work.
In fairness, many agents may need to keep their rosters big because it’s a numbers game for them and it allows them to earn a living under their particular business model (and I fully respect how challenging that can be for them in their increasingly competitive industry). But it sure seems to me that more often than not the only filter some agents seem to use before sending out their mass job posting is "male" or "female"...then hit send. Again for union agents in NYC, LA a CHI this may not be the case. As a non union performer with multiple agents this is a trend I have noted with some disappointment.
* The effectiveness with which the internet allows voice talents to establish their own virtual store makes an agent’s job even more difficult. In effect, because of my web presence I could be considered to be in competition with my own representatives for a voice job. I believe this has been discussed on various boards, specifically because some agents were “caught” actually posting jobs for their roster of talent on mass voice over retail sites like voice 123 and voices-com as well (and some voice talents were aghast). Yet from a business perspective, I understand why some agents feel they need to do this… it’s a numbers game and to do the aforementioned may give some of them a better shot at landing the job through their agency (which is their raison d'être). But given this fact, one could again reasonably ask: what is the value of having an agent?
If nothing else, our current industry environment regarding the agent/voice talent relationship recalls the thoughtful old phrase “what a tangled web we weave.”
Were one were to assume I am anti-agent based on my questions, observations and experiences expressed herein, they would be absolutely incorrect. I believe that the agent system has proven to be very profitable for many professional voice talents, including myself. I have great respect for many of my agents who are focused on the success of their talent rosters as well as providing the best possible service to any inquiring producers. For those who offer this service to me, I offer a very public thank you.
And as is the case with any service industry, some of us also have had agents that would have proven themselves more truthful if they scratched out the words “talent agent” on their business card and wrote in the word “sloth”. It’s the old 80/20 principle and it applies to agents too: 80% of your agent-related revenue comes from only 20% of your agents.
See, for voice talents, it can also be a numbers game.
By this point in this long missive, I’ve likely bored many readers and infuriated a few others (some who may be angrily checking their rolodex to see if they represent me…no problem here, if they don’t know that right away, you can easily guess where they figure in my 80/20 equation.) There are so many different angles one can look at this from and I think, Bob, your book would be well served if you looked at some of these questions from the agents’ perspective as well.
But I think you wouldn’t do your book or your readers’ justice if you only asked “how” and not at least also ask “why”?
I hope this helps everyone in their search for what I think can be (and has been for me) the establishment of some sincerely valued professional relationships with some amazingly dedicated agents.
Best always,
- Peter |
Whew!!!!!! Peter, that was a novel!!!!! And I so much appreciate the time you took to hit me with your thoughts and ideas!!!!! This is exactly what I was looking for!
SO-my turn to respond.
When I asked people to respond to my book, or for that matter when I answer any question or critique a demo on this or any other online VO forum, I'm advising with the intention the reader wants to be at the top of their game. I'm assuming they want to strive for the best.
If you want the best, no matter where you live, no matter union or non union, you have to have an agent.
This is not to say you can't get bookings here, or without an agent. But with an agent, you are now competing with far fewer. You have someone other than you selling you. You also have someone to negotiate the deals. To be the bad guy. To handle the messy stuff. To cold call the clients to get you repeat work.
Etc.
I, as well, believe some voice talent just want to be able to "say" the have an agent(s). But it is far too hard to get an agent these days for most agents to offer courtesy representation.
As to your note about agents who don't know the talent or don't give their talent the time of day?? Bye bye!!! No reason to stay with that!!!!!!!!! There are bad agents, just as there are bad actors. If you aren't happy with the quality of your representation, get out of Dodge!! If you are brilliant, you'll get another agent.
Based on how they answer the questions in my book, it will be very easy to sift through who would be a good or bad agent. Just like it will be easy to sift through which agent would be too large/ambitious to submit to.
AND, this book is also a resource for the agents!! SO many great actors screw it up with bad business tactics. The agents I've interviewed from all over the country have expressed how actors have blown their chance by either the quality of their demo, how they submit, how they follow up, or just mistakes they make in their day to day ventures.
Whether the actor is seeking an agent in the big markets or smaller markets, knowing what the agents expectations are will only help in securing representation.
And I agree. Many agents have waaaay too many clients! That's show biz!!!!
That said, if you are brilliant you will book. No matter how many actors the agent represents. And once you book you'll find your agent will be giving you more love. And if you outgrow your agent, it will now be easier to secure that bigger agent who might have passed on you before.
Then, you go to my book to see what that bigger agent is looking for in the way of submissions, demos, what to expect when interviewing with them, etc. This book will go with you as your career grows. And this book will be updated often!!
As to my web presence vs. my agent, I agree it is OH so important to have a website. One stop shopping for the buyer.
If you are contacted by a buyer or producer from a visit to your site, refer the buyer to your agent. THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE AN AGENT!!! Let them negotiate the deal!!! Your job is to act! The agent's job is to handle the business. Even if you don't get more than scale, give the business to your agent!! They are working their assess off on your behalf. Even if you haven't heard from them in a few days, chances are (if they are good) they've been on the phones pitching you or negotiating a deal. And when you hand the agents those occasional "gimmes" where they get commission for pretty much doing nothing, it's a nice way for you the actor to say thank you for the hard work your agent does for you.
Over the past 2 weeks I've worked on 2 animated features, one for Pixar and one for FOX. I was called directly because I was hired by producers who'd worked with me before. I could have easily taken the booking myself and kept the agent's 10%. Why pay my agent when they did nada to get me this gig???
Because it's the right thing to do. And it shows good faith. Your agent will appreciate it and work even harder for you.
Now, if your agent sucks and you don't want to pay them in a situation like this, get thee to a better agent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bottom line-if you have an agent, pay em!!!! Don't take the bookings yourself!!!!!!!! No web will be tangled and you will all weave in harmony!
And to your last point, you bet I'm going to be covering "why" as well as "how" in my book. I have 50 pretty hard and direct questions every agent is asked. Some were taken aback by a few of the questions. Many responded, "Wow-I've never thought about that" or "Hmm...I've never put that into words before."
The last question I ask every agent in my book is, "Why is it so hard to get an agent??"
I was surprised by the consistent answer that most gave. I myself got a huge education on agents while researching this book. And I've been represented by some of the top VO agents in LA for almost 30 years.
Bottom line-if your goal is to be the best you can in the business of VO, you must have an agent. Even with all the self marketing and online resources, if you want the best, you have to have an agent.
And if your goal is to be the best, it is YOU to whom I am advising and critiquing on this and other sites....as well as my book.
My goal from the get go in my career was to be the best. I wanted nothing less. Wanting it all is the only way to get it. Wanting to be better than everyone else. Wanting the top paying jobs. Wanting to be heard by the top buyers. Having the best representation. Having the best demos.
And I'm finding that, many here who may not be the best "talent wise" are hungry to find what they need to do to BE the best. Often it's just lack of experience. Or bad previous advice. I have seen at my weekend workshops around the country talent who are as good or better than those in LA. I've seen some who aren't there yet, but have that "it" factor where they will do whatever they can to make it to the top.
I'm talking to those who remind me of me. The me who was starting out 34 years ago who wanted it all. I wanted nothing but honest advice, teaching, and critique. No way to grow without doing it truthfully. If I'd had a book that included every VO agent in LA, and this book outlined exactly what each agent was and wasn't looking for from perspective talent,it would have been the most powerful resource I could have.
This is what I want to put out there. For everyone who wants the best, no matter your market.
BB |
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Claire Dodin
Talent and/or Voice Producer
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 400
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008, 17:52 (GMT) Post subject: |
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Bob, you speak the truth that many people don't want to hear!
I know someone who lost months of well paid regular work because he asked the producer to pay him directly. It so happened that the producer was a good friend of the agent, so the job went to someone else. I don't think he knows why he lost the job.
My point is, saving 10% will eventually lose you a lot more.
Loyalty is everything, it's a small business, even wordwide!
Also, if you are loyal, your agent will work a lot harder for you. It's a win/win situation well worth 10%.
_________________
Claire Dodin voix off / French voice talent
www.clairedodin.com
SaVoa  No. 07022 |
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Claire Dodin
Talent and/or Voice Producer
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 400
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008, 18:01 (GMT) Post subject: |
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Bob, are you familiar with this?:http://www.hollywoodaccess.com/shoppingcart/agora.cgi?product=ActingGuides
something of the kind, updated monthly, for voice agents and with more details/interviews would be awesome!
_________________
Claire Dodin voix off / French voice talent
www.clairedodin.com
SaVoa No. 07022 |
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Peter O'Connell
Talent and/or Voice Producer - Voice Seeker
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 37
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008, 18:32 (GMT) Post subject: |
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Hi Bob-
I promise this post will be shorter 
I think your responses are fine to my points...my only thought was that my observations should in some small way be discussed in the book. Again, I think the agent system is an important and valued one. I am not, however, committed to the idea that getting an agent is the right course of action for every performer. I think based on the level of skill some VO's have, getting an agent is an unrealistic goal.
I also believe that there are non-union talents out there who are having significantly different agent experiences than you are and that the landscape of the voice talent/agent relationship is shifting steeply...certainly when one looks at agents in a more regional context.
But, all that taken in to account...I know the book you complete will itself be complete and ripe with information many talents need to establish a successful agent/talent relationship.
My best wishes to you on your journey as an author.
- Peter
_________________
- Peter
audio'connell voice over Talent
voxmarketising - the audio'connell blog and podcast
voice talent workshop |
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Bob Bergen
Talent and/or Voice Producer
Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008, 22:02 (GMT) Post subject: |
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| Peter O'Connell wrote: | Hi Bob-
I promise this post will be shorter
I think your responses are fine to my points...my only thought was that my observations should in some small way be discussed in the book. Again, I think the agent system is an important and valued one. I am not, however, committed to the idea that getting an agent is the right course of action for every performer. I think based on the level of skill some VO's have, getting an agent is an unrealistic goal.
I also believe that there are non-union talents out there who are having significantly different agent experiences than you are and that the landscape of the voice talent/agent relationship is shifting steeply...certainly when one looks at agents in a more regional context.
But, all that taken in to account...I know the book you complete will itself be complete and ripe with information many talents need to establish a successful agent/talent relationship.
My best wishes to you on your journey as an author.
- Peter |
Your points well taken and very insightful!! 
However, what you are suggesting isn't the book I want to write. It's also not an area I'm an expert in.
SO-maybe Peter should write that book???????
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Don Randall
Talent and/or Voice Producer - Voice Seeker
Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Posts: 168
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008, 02:29 (GMT) Post subject: |
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| Quote: | If you want the best, no matter where you live, no matter union or non union, you have to have an agent.
You have someone other than you selling you. You also have someone to negotiate the deals. To be the bad guy. To handle the messy stuff. To cold call the clients to get you repeat work. |
Ah yes...the good ol' days. The way it used to be, the way it ought to be. I'm sure there are still some agents who actually do make an effort to actively represent their talents BEFORE the fact. But it sure seems like the trend today is to put it in gear AFTER the fact and wait for the talent to snag something so the agent can get paid for all his or her hard work. |
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Bob Bergen
Talent and/or Voice Producer
Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 224
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008, 03:09 (GMT) Post subject: |
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| Don Randall wrote: | | Quote: | If you want the best, no matter where you live, no matter union or non union, you have to have an agent.
You have someone other than you selling you. You also have someone to negotiate the deals. To be the bad guy. To handle the messy stuff. To cold call the clients to get you repeat work. |
Ah yes...the good ol' days. The way it used to be, the way it ought to be. I'm sure there are still some agents who actually do make an effort to actively represent their talents BEFORE the fact. But it sure seems like the trend today is to put it in gear AFTER the fact and wait for the talent to snag something so the agent can get paid for all his or her hard work. |
Well, in a perfect world VO agents would develop talent. There may be some who do.
When a truly brilliant newcomer sends his or her demo to 15 agents, they will usually get about 5-10 interested in meeting with them. It never fails! Everyone wants to represent the next brilliant talent.
Problem is, most submissions aren't brilliant. And when they are, that brilliance sticks out like a sore thumb.
But if everyone was brilliant, everyone would be represented and working.
There are many reasons why agents don't have the time to develop talent the way they use to.
One reason is numbers. There are fewer than 20 VO agents in LA and 120,000 members of SAG. There are more pursuing VO than any other genre of acting. Not to mention non union talent also submitting to agents. Lots of people out there, and only so many agents.
Another reason is non union work/talent. If more people would pass on doing the work non union, there'd be more union work for agents to represent, which would enable them to represent more actors. But the amount of work just isn't there like it was in the old days. One reason is websites like this. What use to go to the agents as union work is now being cast non union on sites like this. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. But it is making it much harder for the working class VO actor to make a living. And it's making is much harder for new people to get an agent. So, it's harder for agents to be able to take the time developing talent. Therefore, they need to concentrate on those who bring in the bucks, and try their best to take their career to the next level.
I can't tell you how fortunate I am to have gotten into this business when I did. It would be so hard for me to give it a shot today.
That said, nothing would stop me from trying!!!! I have no other trained skills, didn't go to college, and I have no passion for anything else. So it probably wouldn't have mattered to me what the state of the business was or what the odds were.
Ya gotta have that "it" factor to make it. |
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Debbie Deutsch
Talent and/or Voice Producer
Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 1338
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