Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 01:22 (GMT) Post subject: Here's one for you
So an ad agency hired me to voice some commercials for a company. So far I've recorded 6 and purchased the background music for them all. The agency has yet to pay me though I am assured the check is in the mail. Today I'm told the company has enjoyed the commercials so much that they want me to be the branding voice and have me on retainer. So, yay for that but....I'm still not being paid by the go-between agency. So what do I do? Of course, I want the retainer, but I really dont like the agency not paying me. It's a bit of a bind. I truly dislike the non-paying client. For me, I always feel embarrassed when I contact a client who hasn't paid. I never want to bug them too much, but hey, it's my money. I don't see an ethical way to contact the company directly either. _________________ Life is short but sweet, for certain
www.septembervoice.com
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 01:54 (GMT) Post subject:
M,
that's a tuff one... and I wish I could give you a good advice, but instead here I go and hi-jack your thread with a similar problem... but, I was hoping the two scenarios are close enough to call for a general answer or advice. Or, two answers in one, if needed.
I've had this regular client for about two years, a small-market radiostation. Recently, they were very close to filing for bankruptcy, but just managed to cut it in the end. At the time, they already had an unpaid bill from me, and they kindly asked for an undefined credit (delay of payment, just to clarify!), and promised to pay as soon as possible. Furthermore, they asked if I would consider continue my delivery of VO's and just put it on the bill. I accepted.
In the middle of November last year, they paid about half the amount they owed me on account. To date, I still haven't received the rest, and I still deliver my services, while the bill just keeps on growing.
I know I should stop and demand payment, but on the other hand, I don't want to shut the door on them, you know? If I stop delivering my services until I receive my money, I'm afraid they just find someone else to do the work, and except for being bad at paying the bills, they are a steady client placing a fair amount of orders every month.
So what do you think? _________________ Regards,
Jacob Ekstroem
- "Try the delightful Danish..."
SaVoa No. 07008
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 02:45 (GMT) Post subject:
Jacob, what would you do if they find someone else to do the VO work without pay?
If you obtain enough non-paying jobs, you'll end up in the poor house.
Keep in mind if they end up in bankruptcy then you're in line with all the other creditors, and may have to accept pennies on the dollar. Given that they have paid, it may be a good gamble to continue the work. But it's up to you.
Do not be embarassed or think it's wrong to expect weekly updates on the bills and their financial status.
As for the first poster, it's unethical for the in between agency to not pay you. Have a talk with them to mention your concerns about not being paid, and ask them if they can think of options for you to get paid in a timely manner while still working with the client.
A good question for both posters is do you have a contract that specifies payment terms including due dates and conditions when payments are late?
Dan Popp Talent and/or Voice Producer - Voice Seeker
Joined: 20 Mar 2006 Posts: 8
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 02:51 (GMT) Post subject:
Jacob Ekstroem wrote:
If I stop delivering my services until I receive my money, I'm afraid they just find someone else to do the work?
...And you're concerned that the other guy will get the non-money that you're not getting?
Seriously, Jacob: I know I will take flack for saying this, but this is a business. The only leverage you have for getting payment is to stop or slow down your work until the client catches up. If you keep working for nothing, they will keep hiring you for nothing.
I was once left holding the bag for $4,000 when one of my clients just suddenly went out of business. At least you have some warning and can do something.
September, the ad agencies in my area will play this same kind of game if we let them get away with it. Ethically, if they are signing a contract with a client that will require them to hire subcontractors (you), they should be getting half - or a portion - of the money up front. Some of that money belongs to you, now.
You are really in a much better position than Jacob because you know the client likes you and is probably unaware of the games that the agency is playing. I wouldn't consider it dirty pool to just drop a hint to a friendly person at the end-client along the lines of, "hey, it's funny but I still have not gotten paid for your spots." The client will probably be mortified and get it cleared up very quickly.
The agency may not like it, but they are, at the very least, a little too nonchalant about their obligation to you.
All of the above is my opinion. I do not expect anyone else to hold, agree with, or even read it. Oops, too late.
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 02:53 (GMT) Post subject:
Frank,
thanks a bunch for your comment!
As for your question for both of us, I for one put terms of payment on my ínvoice, but I'm not an a contract.
Dan,
no, I'm not concerned about the other guy - obviously I trust the client to pay me eventually, but my concerns are about what they do, if I stop delivery. Maybe they have the means to pay me by now, but are just pushing the envelope as far as the can, so I'm afraid they'll feel... offended or whatever by my actions, pay me, and shop elsewhere, just because they think I'M the jerk... you know?
That said, I lean more towards following your suggestions, i.e. stop delivery of services until I get paid. Your right, this is business after all...
Thanks, both of you. _________________ Regards,
Jacob Ekstroem
- "Try the delightful Danish..."
SaVoa No. 07008
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 03:07 (GMT) Post subject:
Quote:
Keep in mind if they end up in bankruptcy then you're in line with all the other creditors, and may have to accept pennies on the dollar.
Years ago, I let it go on for over a year. The guy went bankrupt and for the $14,000 he owed me, I finally got a check for...(drum roll)....$132!
A couple of months later he opened under a different name doing the same thing. I was on the low end of what he owed. A couple of his backers were out about $500,000 each. _________________ John Weeks
www.johnweeksaudio.com
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 03:18 (GMT) Post subject:
There laughing at us. You realize that don't you? They think we are stupid schmucks.
I swear to God respect to me is even more important than money. The fact is no one will respect you if you don't grow a spine.
Tell them that you have no other choice that you will have to find another job that pays, and this other job is going to take up too much of your time to work on their project. You don't want to switch jobs.....you love working for them.....yada yada.....but it's winter and you have to pay your heating bill. You just don't voice as well when your whole body is shivering including your vocal cords.
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 03:24 (GMT) Post subject:
The time to handle this is really at the contract stage. A good contract spells out terms and conditions, including penalties for late payments.
Never, never, never ever agree to changes from the written contract verbally. A written contract cannot be modified verbally.
Don't think a contract means there is no trust. A contract is a tool used between two or more people or groups who trust each other. Its purpose is to clarify and simplify the relationship. It's not an insult to require something in writing.
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 03:31 (GMT) Post subject:
September,
You have held up your end of the bargain. Never be embarrassed to say "hey, where's my money?" It is the slow-paying client and/or agent who should be embarrassed.
Dan Popp Talent and/or Voice Producer - Voice Seeker
Joined: 20 Mar 2006 Posts: 8
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 03:34 (GMT) Post subject:
Quote:
no, I'm not concerned about the other guy - obviously I trust the client to pay me eventually ...
so I'm afraid they'll feel... offended or whatever by my actions, pay me, and shop elsewhere, just because they think I'M the jerk... you know?
Jacob, I think that your trust that "the client will pay you eventually" is unrealistic. Every business ends sometime. This one's time may be up, whatever good intentions they may have toward you.
You know, I've found that most professional clients and professional people are not offended in the least when you hold them to minimum standards of professional conduct. 99% of them will blush and say, "Yeah, we've been a little lax about that, haven't we?", and try to do better.
Coincidentally, I just checked my work email and got a request to quote on a big job from a guy I haven't heard from in ages. There was a day when he was the Big Agency Dude and I was just a peon working out of a basement (not even my basement). But his agency was taking 90 or 120 days to pay me, routinely. I said, "Ken, this isn't right. You've got me doing 1-day turnaround to produce the spots, then it takes you 4 months to cut a check for the spots?" From that moment, he began holding his company's feet to the fire. I didn't always get paid promptly after that, but almost always.
Pro's understand pro behavior and respect it. If you don't respect yourself, no one else will.
Again, the opinons expressed are not necessarily those of my fellow earthlings or any other sentient or non-sentient beings.
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 03:44 (GMT) Post subject:
Dan Popp wrote:
But his agency was taking 90 or 120 days to pay me, routinely. I said, "Ken, this isn't right. You've got me doing 1-day turnaround to produce the spots, then it takes you 4 months to cut a check for the spots?"
Hear here! This penchant is a holdover from the 1950's of bowing and scraping to manufacturing companies to get their broadcast advertising business (don't pay unless you see an increase in sales! take a chance on this new way of selling your product!) and has somehow become standard, to this day. It's archaic and has no place in the world of overnight Nielsen's and 1-day turnarounds. If a client or company can't pay what they owe by 30 days after delivery, they probably shouldn't be in business.
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 03:49 (GMT) Post subject:
After 6 months of me begging and pleading to get paid for a spot, I had a guy say he didn't know what I was talking about and would only pay me half. I told him to do whatever he thought was right. He came in to the radio station one day in a panic wanting me to cut a spot for him. I refused. Later I was thinking what I should've done is cut the spot but only read every other word!
I never heard from that deadbeat again. _________________ John Weeks
www.johnweeksaudio.com
Scott Pollak Talent and/or Voice Producer - Voice Seeker
Joined: 05 Mar 2004 Posts: 3828
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008, 04:11 (GMT) Post subject:
Jacob,
I'd suggest contacting the client, preferably either in person or at least via phone (not e-mail) and nicely and professionally say you really want to work with them, you understand the financial duress they're dealing with, and let's go ahead and set up a payment schedule. Then arrange for a reasonable payment schedule.... x amount of dollars due every month on such-and-such date, or every two weeks, etc. Make it a sum that you know they can handle, but that also gives you the incentive to carry on with them. If they balk, then very politely say you're sorry, but you simply can't continue to provide your services for free.
BTW, it should go without saying that you need to get this agreement in writing. _________________ Scott R. Pollak Warm. Real. Natural. www.voicebyscott.com
SaVoa 07003
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